Author Topic: New Loot System  (Read 2974 times)

Nymeros

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Re: New Loot System
« Reply #30 on: January 05, 2007, 10:31:49 am »
Quote from: Nissassa
I didnt read anything about "main tanks" in our loot policy.  If we do go that route, (and boy do I hate to say this) perhaps our MT should be a druid.  Once I started level 70 content my groups always demanded bear tanks.  Tanking without swipe is almost impossible.  Its been over a month since Ive even seen a prot warrior, and I try to run a 5-10 man every day.  I have never done any 25 man content however.

I made a post about this in the warrior forums and from the 7 pages of responses I got in about an hour - they and blizz are fully aware of this issue.


Lets start replies to this here: http://www.stonecutters.us/forums/index.php?a=topic&t=6172

Lets not derail the Loot thread with a Tanking debate.
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Aendawyn

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Re: New Loot System
« Reply #31 on: January 05, 2007, 10:40:44 am »
Niss, I'm sure Blizz will "fix" that.

It may take a patch or two, but warriors are intended as the primary tanks.

As for the gearing up Main Tank idea, while it stands the test of reason and it's what we've done in the past.  I'm tired of seeing the guild bless people with an excess of gold/items/time/benefits only to have the people burn out, become preoccupied, or quit to join some other guild because "thats were all the good raiders went."  It's not fair to both the person and the guild.

As such, I'm all for a one-size-fits-all system until there becomes a necessity to create an exception.

edit: removed tank role comment that may detract from discussion of the system
« Last Edit: January 05, 2007, 10:43:27 am by Aendawyn »
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Re: New Loot System
« Reply #32 on: January 05, 2007, 02:07:30 pm »
We did discuss the whole "Main Tank" designation and priority on loot, but historically we've been burned by that sort of thing too many times.  While progression may not be as expedicious as if we forced loot on specific people to gear them to the teeth, it will be far better over time for everyone if the system does most of the determining fairly.
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Hurtdog

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Re: New Loot System
« Reply #33 on: January 05, 2007, 02:47:55 pm »
I don't think we need to designate any form of tank for specific loot exceptions, as the tank(s) who attend the raids more will have more points in this new system then those who don't. The MT will shake out that way.

Nissassa

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Re: New Loot System
« Reply #34 on: January 05, 2007, 04:05:07 pm »
I'm not too sure about having seperate dkp for each zone.  Lets say for example, that we used this system in the current game.  Once you got your helm from Ony, you dont get rewarded for showing up at future ony raids, as you will only get credited with points for attending the raid.  Same with MC.  Once you get 8/8 any future runs are time wasters, since you dont need to accumulate points in there anymore.  People are going to be 2/2 or 3/3 in Gruul's lair pretty fast after we have it on farm.

Im ready for a bunch of "ITS NOT ABOUT THE LEWT" responses, but running 3 hours in a monotonous dungeon for the 40th time gets boring.  As long as you are accumulating points (to be spent anywhere) its easier to handle.  Guess it depends on how weighted the "raids attended" points are.

Vicini

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Re: New Loot System
« Reply #35 on: January 05, 2007, 04:18:37 pm »
Quote from: Nissassa
I'm not too sure about having seperate dkp for each zone.  Lets say for example, that we used this system in the current game.  Once you got your helm from Ony, you dont get rewarded for showing up at future ony raids, as you will only get credited with points for attending the raid.  Same with MC.  Once you get 8/8 any future runs are time wasters, since you dont need to accumulate points in there anymore.  People are going to be 2/2 or 3/3 in Gruul's lair pretty fast after we have it on farm.

Im ready for a bunch of "ITS NOT ABOUT THE LEWT" responses, but running 3 hours in a monotonous dungeon for the 40th time gets boring.  As long as you are accumulating points (to be spent anywhere) its easier to handle.  Guess it depends on how weighted the "raids attended" points are.


You still acumulate Total raid points.

Quote from: geo
You also earn points based on your raid attendance over the past 60 days.  The raid attendance points are earned based on total raids attended and raids attended in that instance.  For example you will earn 0.5 points per total raids attended and 1 point per raid attended in that instance.  The exact point percentages have not been worked out yet.  We will adjust them based on the item values.


« Last Edit: January 05, 2007, 04:19:45 pm by Vicini »
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Leebowski

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Re: New Loot System
« Reply #36 on: January 05, 2007, 05:28:46 pm »
Quote from: Nissassa
...


This was a main point of debate and discussion for hours and hours on end.  I see the same problems with it that you do.  This is really the area where there is are pros and cons either way you do it.

IE.  Lets say you had DKP for ALL zones, some CONS off the top of my head.
A. Item Normalization and point values becomes so much more important to be RIGHT the first time (T2 gear vs T1 gear etc...).
B. Points in FARMED zones vs points in New-Encounter Zones.  People can easily farm points in the easy zones and not attend the hard zones until its on easy mode and then just take the best loot.
C. Heads / Zone specific items.  It really made alot of people mad seeing someone who went to ZG 100x, walk into AQ once after we finally had down Ossy and take or roll on Ossy's head.

So - separate DKP per zone benefits
A. Item values - are much easier to keep fair / valid even when upgrading from one purple to another.
B. If people want to farm points in a ZONE A, they have to goto ZONE A.  They cannot farm points in an easier zone, then come to ZONE A and spend them.

The big trade off is *Motiving those to still come after they receive loot*.  

Lets be honest though, some people like Yohaan, Afra, shaytan, yourself i believe and others went to MC over and over again to help improve the guild and needed nothing out of it.  While some others, after they got what they wanted they just stopped going.  So yes we will have people get their gear and move on, and we will have people that continue to go just to help the guild.  I think that exists with both DKP per zone and DKP across all zones.

Anyways I argued for a very long time we do it across all zones, and well didn't win that one.  Its one of those things not everyone was going to agree on, and someone had to lose face.  On the reverse side I pushed/backed for the total raid attendance bonus, so at least there is some incentive and so in brand new zones the brand new guy who has never raided, will still be at a disadvantage.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2007, 05:32:45 pm by Leebowski »
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Leebowski

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Re: New Loot System
« Reply #37 on: April 11, 2007, 02:03:01 pm »
NOTE: Gruul's Lair will be TRACKED tonight!

Vulture has done an enomorous amount of work, and all in all its ready to go.  We will have to tweak values like anything to make the system better in the future, but this will be used TONIGHT!

Yes hopefully in the next few days we will get some links up so you can see how many points you have and what your DKP is for Gruul's Lair.
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Vulture

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Re: New Loot System
« Reply #38 on: April 11, 2007, 09:35:32 pm »
http://www.stonecutters.us/raid2/summary.php?ZoneID=30

Some minor tweaks need to be in place still, before people freak out on their point scores.  KZ runs will loose their 0.25 point attendance bonus soon, as the only tracked KZ raids are the ones I've been on.

The all-raid attendance bonus is why I'm currently ahead of ya'll on gruul's lair points, once this is cleaned up you should see everyone there at 1.25.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2007, 10:06:11 pm by Vulture »

Leebowski

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Re: New Loot System
« Reply #39 on: May 08, 2007, 10:04:45 am »
/Moved Post so all members (including trials) can see.

/Uploaded raid

/With Cob's help edit the raid a bit and got the point values assigned properly  (based on combination of item level, item slot, stats etc...)

So -- DKP is updated - here is Gruul's Lair DKP standings

http://www.stonecutters.us/raid2/summary.php?ZoneID=30&names=

note: helmet, chest, legs are always going to be higher value, its how blizzard assigns things.... I'll try and find the formula details we have in some post somewhere and re-iterate them when i can later this week... Unless someone beats me too it :).
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Nymeros

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Re: New Loot System
« Reply #40 on: May 08, 2007, 11:02:19 am »
Sweetness.  DKP system's now in full swing. :D
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geo

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Re: New Loot System
« Reply #41 on: May 18, 2007, 02:51:07 pm »
ok, here is how item values are calculated, Cob may need to update us if anything has changed:

This system took a long time to develop and a long time for Cob to code.  So hats off to him and the tappers/officers/members that contributed.

DKPCost = [(ItemLevel*2+(ItemLevel*SlotValue))/3 * (ColorValue)]

ITEM SLOT MULTIPLIER
0.0   Shirt, Projectile, Bag, Tabard
0.6   Cloack, Neck, Finger, Tricket
0.65 Feet, Hands, Shoulders, Waist
0.9   Head and Legs
0.95 Chest/Robe
0.95 One-hand, Off-hand, Ranged Weapons, Held in Off-hand, Idol, Shield
1.7   2-Hand Weapons

ITEM COLOR MULTIPLIER
0.90   Blue
1.0     Purple
1.05   Orange

Now, about the values. ItemLevel is actual level of the item that blizzard has assigned it.  This is a very good indicator of comparison between two objects.  It's not available in-game, but it is inside the ItemCache.wdb files; and you can see the exact value of each item over on goblinworkshop if you like.  Thottbot et all also displays it on their tooltips I believe.

ItemSlotMultiplier -- this is more arbitrary, but based on a wow wiki study of how blizzard assigns stats to various slotted items.  These numbers aren't the best idea for comparisons I think.  Weapons generally have less stats than armor, but are  pretty desirable for other reasons.    

ItemColorMultiplier -- I know you're thinking 'purples have so much better stats than blues, why would a blue only have a 5% markdown?'   Well, the answer here ties back to item level.  For example, when you kill Onyxia you get a ItemLevel 76 Bloodfang Hood.  The same monster drops an ItemLevel 60 Stonegrip Gauntlets which has much lower stats.   The truth is, if Onyxia dropped level 76 blue items, they would be only slightly inferior in stats/etc to the Bloodfang Hood.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2007, 03:13:29 pm by geo »
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geo

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Re: New Loot System
« Reply #42 on: May 18, 2007, 03:01:36 pm »
[16:00] "1", "Head", "Kopf", "INVTYPE_HEAD", "0.9"
[16:00] "2", "Neck", "Neck", "INVTYPE_NECK", "0.6"
[16:00] "3", "Shoulders", "Shoulders", "INVTYPE_SHOULDER", "0.65"
[16:00] "4", "Shirt", "Shirt", "INVTYPE_BODY", "0"
[16:00] "5", "Chest", "Chest", "INVTYPE_CHEST", "0.95"
[16:00] "6", "Waist", "Waist", "INVTYPE_WAIST", "0.65"
[16:00] "7", "Legs", "Legs", "INVTYPE_LEGS", "0.9"
[16:00] "8", "Feet", "Feet", "INVTYPE_FEET", "0.65"
[16:00] "9", "Wrists", "Wrists", "INVTYPE_WRIST", "0.6"
[16:00] "10", "Hands", "Hands", "INVTYPE_HAND", "0.65"
[16:00] "11", "Finger", "Finger", "INVTYPE_FINGER", "0.6"
[16:00] "12", "Trinket", "Trinket", "INVTYPE_TRINKET", "0.6"
[16:00] "13", "One-Hand", "Ein-Hand", "INVTYPE_WEAPON", "0.95"
[16:00] "14", "Shield", "Shield", "INVTYPE_SHIELD", "0.95"
[16:00] "15", "Ranged", "Erstreckt", "INVTYPE_RANGED", "0.95"
[16:00] "16", "Back", "Back", "INVTYPE_CLOAK", "0.6"
[16:00] "17", "Two-Hand", "Two-Hand", "INVTYPE_2HWEAPON", "1.7"
[16:00] "18", "Bag", "Bag", "INVTYPE_BAG", "0"
[16:00] "19", "Tabard", "Tabard", "INVTYPE_TABARD", "0"
[16:00] "20", "Robe", "Robe", "INVTYPE_ROBE", "0.95"
[16:00] "21", "Main Hand", "Haupthand", "INVTYPE_WEAPONMAINHAND", "0.95"
[16:00] "22", "Off-hand", "Off-hand", "INVTYPE_WEAPONOFFHAND", "0.95"
[16:01] "23", "Held in Off-hand", "Held in Off-hand", "INVTYPE_HOLDABLE", "0.95"
[16:01] "24", "Projectile", "Projectile", "INVTYPE_AMMO", "0"
[16:01] "25", "Thrown", "Thrown", "INVTYPE_THROWN", "0.95"
[16:01] "26", "Ranged", "Ranged", "INVTYPE_RANGED", "0.95"
[16:01] "28", "Idol", "Idol", "INVTYPE_IDOL", "0.95"

http://www.sourcepeek.com/wiki/Inventory_Slots
http://www.sourcepeek.com/wiki/ItemCache.wdb
« Last Edit: May 18, 2007, 03:14:12 pm by geo »
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Saffire

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Re: New Loot System
« Reply #43 on: July 16, 2007, 12:47:25 am »
How do we see the DKP standings?  I've accidently come across the link a couple of times, but don't remember how I got there.

Sendrax

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Re: New Loot System
« Reply #44 on: July 16, 2007, 03:54:17 am »
Hit the "Raid Standings" link on the left menu at http://www.stonecutters.us/

Then just select an instance.
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