New Loot System

[geo]

Hello,

After five months of debate we have formulated the frame work for our new DKP system.  Our old loot system is actually a modified DKP system, so the apple is not falling for from the tree.  Some of the details are still up in the air pending our evaluation of the high end instances that blizz releases.  Let me add that creating this loot system has been no small undertaking.  Many officers and tappers have devoted a lot of time and thought into this system.  Special thanks to Vulture for all the programming voodoo.

The System at a Glance

The system will be a modified zero-sum DKP system.  We will call it SCDKP.  SCDKP consists of 2 components.  Zero-sum dkp and raid attendance.

You earn poins by: A) Zero-sum DPK from item drops  &    B) DKP points based on raid attendance.  We will have different DKP lists for each instance.

Points earned in 1 instance will not transfere to any other instance.  Your DKP points are instance specific.

You spend points by winning items.

Why this System?

No loot system is fair.  All loot systems have strengths and weaknesses.  This system is a balance between casual and hardcore (two words I really dont like to use).  By giving points based on total raid attendance and zone raid attendance we reward those members that contribute the most.  But, as the same time we do not severly gimp causal players.

DKP systems award points based on the value of items that drop in an instance, and the number of items that drop in an instance.  By keeping seperate DKP lists for each instance, the time you spend in a specific instance correlates to your chances of winning an item from that instance.

We understand that some people can't raid on certain nights.  This is where total raid attendance comes in.  If you are an extremely active raider, but can almost never raid Tuesday night, you still have a shot at loot on those few Tuesdays you can make it.

How You Earn Points

As stated above, you earn points from item drops AND from raid attendance.

Every piece of loot in each zone will be assigned an item value (we use an algorythm that assigns DKP value based on item stats, item level, and item type, then item DKP values are adjusted if necessary).  In this system you earn points when loot drops and is won by a member.  The points an item is worth is equally split between the members of the raid.  If an item won by me is worth 100DKP, then each member in a 20-man raid would recieve 5DKP.

You also earn points based on your raid attendance over the past 60 days.  The raid attendance points are earned based on total raids attended and raids attended in that instance.  For example you will earn 0.25 points per total raids attended and 1 point per raid attended in that instance.

Additionally, bonus points may be given while we are learning new instances.  For example, in BWL we would give all members who attend a raid, lets say 20 bonus DKP.  This rewards the people who suffered through wipes and repair bills while learning an instance.

So, an example:

Bill has 150 DKP points for the MYC instance from item drops.  He has 50 raids total attended and 5 raids attended to MYC.  He recieves 12.5  points for total attendance and 5 points for instance specific attendance.  His total points are 150 + 12.5 + 5 = 167.5 total DKP points.

The website shows each character name.  Their total raid attendance over the past 60 days.  Instance specific attendance of the past 60 days.  And TOTAL DKP for each instance.

How you Spend Points
Every item has a point value.  You generally win an item by having the highest amount of DKP of the people wanting the item.  If you have 175 DKP (125 DKP from items and 50 RA bonus points) and an item costs 100DKP then you will be left with 75DKP.


The system:

-Applies to all 20 to 25 man level 70 instances
-Tracks DKP points PER instance
-Gives bonus points just for attending a new instnace where we kill no bosses
-Is subject to loot council at any time
-Is adjusted as necessary

At a glance:
Zero sum DKP
1 DKP point per raid attended in a specific instance
0.25 DKP points per total raid attendance

[Vulture]

Posted By Geo:

ok, here is how item values are calculated, Cob may need to update us if anything has changed:

This system took a long time to develop and a long time for Cob to code.  So hats off to him and the tappers/officers/members that contributed.

DKPCost = [(ItemLevel*2+(ItemLevel*SlotValue))/3 * (ColorValue)]

ITEM SLOT MULTIPLIER
0.0   Shirt, Projectile, Bag, Tabard
0.6   Cloack, Neck, Finger, Tricket
0.65 Feet, Hands, Shoulders, Waist
0.9   Head and Legs
0.95 Chest/Robe
0.95 One-hand, Off-hand, Ranged Weapons, Held in Off-hand, Idol, Shield
1.7   2-Hand Weapons

ITEM COLOR MULTIPLIER
0.90   Blue
1.0     Purple
1.05   Orange

Now, about the values. ItemLevel is actual level of the item that blizzard has assigned it.  This is a very good indicator of comparison between two objects.  It's not available in-game, but it is inside the ItemCache.wdb files; and you can see the exact value of each item over on goblinworkshop if you like.  Thottbot et all also displays it on their tooltips I believe.

ItemSlotMultiplier -- this is more arbitrary, but based on a wow wiki study of how blizzard assigns stats to various slotted items.  These numbers aren't the best idea for comparisons I think.  Weapons generally have less stats than armor, but are  pretty desirable for other reasons.    

ItemColorMultiplier -- I know you're thinking 'purples have so much better stats than blues, why would a blue only have a 5% markdown?'   Well, the answer here ties back to item level.  For example, when you kill Onyxia you get a ItemLevel 76 Bloodfang Hood.  The same monster drops an ItemLevel 60 Stonegrip Gauntlets which has much lower stats.   The truth is, if Onyxia dropped level 76 blue items, they would be only slightly inferior in stats/etc to the Bloodfang Hood.

Posted by Cob:


Some example standings: http://www.stonecutters.us/raid2/summary.php
Initial item values: http://www.stonecutters.us/raid2/items.php  (huge page, slow loading)

We can also change prices and recalculate points for all history.  We will be tweaking these as we raid at 70 and 'feel out' the system.

Also, we have sweet meaningless attendance graphs!

[Leebowski]

First off - Vulture ROCKS!

2ndly - Item values determination is from

Read Cob's post below, it changes quickly hehe

We are looking at links like http://www.wowwiki.com/Formulas:Item_Values and trying to find the best modifiers that work for us currently.

3rd - Notice we are doing DKP Per Instance - points will not carry over between instances.

4th - Total Raid Attendance bonus is the only thing that will carry over between instances.

[Aendawyn]

Interesting change...

For anyone who cares, he's the wiki on the Zero-Sum DKP system: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DKP#Zero-sum_DKP

Looking at the numbers it seems to take around 3-6 (depending on the zone) runs to recoup the points spent on a given item.  Not too bad at all, I do worry about people stock piling points, but they're usually stock piling for a reason, so whateva.  There may also be issues with people going negative, saying f' that zone and never raiding there again, but again whateva.

I'm a bit confused with the math though...

On the example table I don't understand how the line item subtractions correlate to the costs on the bottom.  As an example from the Vulture profile...

In the line item section:
 -39.00   Seal of the Gurubashi Berserker   7:48 PM

Yet in the items section:
   Seal of the Gurubashi Berserker    High Priestess Arlokk   2006-09-25 19:48:10   56.33

Shouldn't the line item costing be something like -53.514?  Assuming the formula is (Cost - PointShare) where PointShare is ((cost/2)/NumberOfPlayer)?

[Leebowski]

I'm a bit confused with the math though...

On the example table I don't understand how the line item subtractions correlate to the costs on the bottom.  As an example from the Vulture profile...

In the line item section:
-39.00    Seal of the Gurubashi Berserker    7:48 PM

Yet in the items section:
    Seal of the Gurubashi Berserker    High Priestess Arlokk    2006-09-25 19:48:10    56.33

Shouldn't the line item costing be something like -53.514?  Assuming the formula is (Cost - PointShare) where PointShare is ((cost/2)/NumberOfPlayer)?

Item cost were updated today.  That raid summary was done a while ago.  Thus those raids need to be *recalculated* with the current item values.  All that data is MOCK atm (sometimes the same raid loaded multiple times).  While its a good example, its only an example for the time being.

[Gluckon]

Points earned in 1 instance will not transfere to any other instance.  Your DKP points are instance specific.

This is a great idea here guys, GJ!

[Aendawyn]

Ah, so is it a good metric to say 3 (mc/zg)-6 (ony) runs to recoup lost points?

[Vulture]

Actually the raid data is all cleaned out to one-raid-per-hit, but obviously it doesn't have our full history loaded into it.

The problem you pointed out Aend is because we changed the item formula a bit, and I didn't reprocess everything. (Item values changed quite a bit today).

DKP cost formula leeb pointed out is currently incorrect above.

DKPCost = ((ItemLevel*2 + ItemLevel*SlotModifier)/3) * ColorModifier;

Blues are 0.9, Purples 1.0 and Epics 1.05

SlotModifiers:

1.70 two handed weapon, staff
0.95 chest, one handed weapon, shield, thrown, ranged, idol
0.90 helm, legs
0.65 boots, gloves, shoulders, belt
0.60 finger, back, neck, wrists, trinket
0.00 shirt, projectile, bag, tabard

[Leebowski]

Ah, so is it a good metric to say 3 (mc/zg)-6 (ony) runs to recoup lost points?

You know it really depends on soo many factors its hard to just state a metric such as that.  I guess thats a pretty good average.

Example - Full Molten Core Run 22-25 Drops.  Since that is more then 1/2 the raid (40 man zone) it takes 2 full molten core runs to recoupe lost points.  Now ... while learning it and say we only get through Magamadar, thats only 4-6 epics per run.  Thus take alot longer to recoupe your points.

So thats some whacky formula like (avg # of items dropped per raid) / (number of people to raid zone). Which probably does fall into that 3-6 raids range for most zones.  Then thats assuming you only win one item.  We've had runs where someone has won as many as 6 items because no one else needed them etc...

[CyddV]

algorythm

u speel goud

Edit: I like this system. It looks like it will be fair to those who are active in the guild and also the people who can only raid certain nights.

[Vulture]

Ah, so is it a good metric to say 3 (mc/zg)-6 (ony) runs to recoup lost points?

This is dependant on how many items drop.   For MC looks like around... 15 items drop, with a 40 member attendance you're looking at about 3 raids per 'it's my turn for an upgrade'.    

Overall it's not so much about 'points'.  Because you only get points when someone else gets gear, think of it as giving everyone an IOU that they can cash in later.  The points are just numbers, what they represent is a balance of how much gear, and quality of gear that you've gotten compared to the people that you've been raiding with.

[Aendawyn]

If an item get's DE'd it still gives points (or guild IOU's :-) ) correct?

Seems fair enough to me, hopefully it has the durribilty of the last system.

[Nymeros]

Wow! I like.  Kanno's Sample.  Interesting setup, I like it a lot so far.

The RA/Points compromise reminds me of Senate vs. House. Lol.  Good move.

I have a few questions though:
1. Are our points starting at a clean slate in BC or are we staying with these current values?
2. Are we using this system for Karazhan (the new MC)?  Being the first raid instance, I don't think you should leave this out - even if it's a 10man raid.
3. I'm assuming there's an item limit per instance no matter what the points?  Meaning, even if you have the points, you can't just snag three items in one run.
4. Is this an open system that's player enforced or are we going to put some limitations on it where people spend their points on their raid role/spec first?
5. Do we get points for when items are disenchanted (like Aend asked)?
6. Are there any separate rules for crafting formulas?  I'd hope they go to people who are going to stay within the guild.
7. Are the officers or raid leaders ever going to force upgrades to curve dkp hoarding?

[geo]

Kanno - All very good questions.  For the most part we have not decided on most of these issues.

1. Are our points starting at a clean slate in BC or are we staying with these current values?

At this time, we will be starting with a clean slate, however, we will make a final determination in the future.

2. Are we using this system for Karazhan (the new MC)?  Being the first raid instance, I don't think you should leave this out - even if it's a 10man raid.

Maybe.  We have not discussed it yet.

3. I'm assuming there's an item limit per instance no matter what the points?  Meaning, even if you have the points, you can't just snag three items in one run.

We are still working on this issue.  But, since the points are instance specific, we are leaning towards a high item limit if any.

4. Is this an open system that's player enforced or are we going to put some limitations on it where people spend their points on their raid role/spec first?

Still discussing this issue.  

5. Do we get points for when items are disenchanted (like Aend asked)?

Probably not.  But we havent finished discussing this issue.

6. Are there any separate rules for crafting formulas?  I'd hope they go to people who are going to stay within the guild.

Don't know yet for sure.  But we will probably loot council rare/epic crafting formulas.

7. Are the officers or raid leaders ever going to force upgrades to curve dkp hoarding?

I dont know.  I dont think we will, but we have to discuss it.

[Nymeros]

Essentially, "No new information at this time." =P